Ambition. Unleashed.
Ep3. Stop predicting. Start declaring. - with Neil Rodgers

Transcript

PLEASE NOTE: Software is used to transcribe the spoken content into written format and will contain some inaccuracies and errors.

 

Introduction

 

[Sara] Our mindset is one of the biggest determiners of our success and is perhaps the biggest determiner of whether or not we achieve our dreams and ambitions.

 

[Wayne] I’m Wane Alexander [and I’m Sara Moore] and this is Ambition. Unleashed.

 

[Sara] In each episode of this podcast we’re going to explore a different mindset shift to consider making if you want to identify and achieve your biggest, boldest, most breakthrough ambitions.

 

We’ll also hear from thought leaders who are experts in - or from extraordinary individuals who have lived experience of - making this shift in their life, leadership or work. 

 

[Wayne] Together we’ll explore a conventional way we as humans find ourselves thinking. And introduce and invite you to think in a more unconventional way - what we call breakthrough thinking. Sharing some of the insights we’ve had over the many years we’ve being coaching and consulting with some of the world’s most extraordinary leaders at many of the worlds biggest companies.

 

[Sara] We’ll give you the fundamental aha moments you need to make you more innovative, more transformational, and more capable of delivering breakthroughs and ultimately smash any ceilings that only the way in which we think can put in our way.

Todays Shift

[00:00:57] Wayne: In this week's episode, we're going to chat with Neil [00:01:00] Rogers, a veritable samurai in coaching people to think more breakthrough and explore our human habit that seemingly goes way back to the dawn of time of making predictions.

[00:01:10] Sara: There is nothing inherently wrong with making these predictions, of course, but sometimes our desire to make predictions keeps us with both feet in the past and can inhibit us striving for bolder futures. Predictions can very often give us a sense of safety because typically we base them on a trend that has happened before. It must be possible because we've done it before. Or it isn't possible because we've tried it before. Whereas declaring the seemingly impossible can feel like a dangerous and irresponsible move. But of course, when we really think about it, the future's no more imaginary than the past. And imagined recollection of the past. I mean, I'm often having conversations with my mother about, you know, remember when this happened, remember when that happened and she says it didn't happen like that at all.

[00:02:03] There is only the present and declaration is the only way to take action in line with creating a future that has entirely new ambition and a set of results.

[00:02:14] Wayne: There's a stand-out breakthrough moment for me in the 20th century, which happened in 1963, during a civil rights March to Washington, when a young 34 year old Baptist minister stood and shared his dream.

[00:02:27] Watched by the world he put that dream into words and declared that one day, our children would be judged not by the colour of their skin, but by the content of their character. And Sara I visited Martin Luther King's childhood home in Atlanta, in Georgia, where he lived for the first 12 years of his life.

[00:02:45] And it's just a block away from the church called Ebenezer Baptist Church, where King was baptized where his grandfather and father were pastors and were actually Martin Luther King himself would also become pastor in 1960, just eight years before he was killed. And what struck me when I was there. It was, it was also local.

[00:03:06] It's all a stone's throw from each other: where he was born, where he grew up and where he would work. But his dream was for the nation or the world. And instead of keeping that dream to himself, he put it into words, whenever he had opportunity. He gave it flesh and blood in his actions and by doing so he contributed significantly to bringing about legal and societal change around race and justice and poverty.

[00:03:33] Martin Luther King had a dream, but what would have been its power if he hadn't used language or put it into words and declared that dream for others to hear. What would have been its power, if he’d kept it as a personal dream, just to himself. What would have been its power if he hadn't taken action from that dream or, or used it as a lens through which to interpret current circumstances and see all that was missing and current reality that needed changing for that dream to become a reality.

[00:04:03] By putting that dream into words, he helped millions to begin to hold a context that one day our children would be judged not by the colour of their skin, but by the content of their character. Martin Luther King was one person in a multi-person story, there were many different players and actors who caused the changes that happened.

[00:04:22] But Martin Luther King did declare a possibility for more equal America and for changes to law that by himself he had no authority to enact, but it didn't prevent him declaring the possibility, the dream. And what happened is the conversation followed in the world until the laws were changed by those in Washington who had authority to change them. And it's an example of the power of declaration.

[00:04:47] Sara: I love that story so powerful Wayne and I really liked the fact you draw out the possibility of him not making that declaration because of course, so many of us, perhaps teeter on the edge of it and decide not to make those declarations because of the reaction that we would get. At the time of recording this episode its January, 2022. We've collectively welcomed a new year and it's natural that we turn a page, you know, from one year to the next and we look ahead wondering what this year will bring. A custom for many as that page is turned is to make resolutions, some wishes and wants about health and fitness or work or relationships, or just eating less biscuits before midday.

[00:05:35] Wayne: It a bit of a challenge.

Sara:  There's something predictive in that. And that's how most visions and commitments exist. We build on what is already existing, just trying to improve it as predictive of the future base from how the past has gone and therefore constrained, incremental and perhaps unchallenging. But the practice of declaration, which we'll unpack today, has some hallmarks to it that cause it to have power and transformational impact. And in our consultancy what we've observed is that this is one of the least practice leadership moves, but it is available to us all.

A hallmark of unleashing ambition is to declare what your ambition is - to not keep it as the best kept secret, but to speak it and allow the speaking of it to invite and enroll others into making it a reality.

To give it being by turning it from thoughts to words, which has power to shift perceptions. So that actions then follow naturally. It has the power to birth conversations in the family, the workplace, community, and world that need to be had and become reality. The organizations that we've worked in have created some example, you know, declarations, including, you know, changing the health EK system of Canada or ending chemotherapy for three [00:07:00] cancers, accelerating renewable energy for net zero, or to educate every accident and emergency department in the UK about the observable signs of aortic dissection so that no one dies from a treatable emergency condition.

Wayne: And I've recently supported a world-class drug development organization makes some astounding breakthrough declarations that would change the lives of thousands of patients with cancer and their families. But what I'm observing is how the declarative action and then the invitation to that organisation to take action consistent with that declaration rather than the past is now causing already world-class scientists to challenge their own assumptions and rethink how they work and do what they do. It's amazing to watch. But, uh, I wouldn't be surprised if those listening might say, but what is so different about this to two mission statements that are on nearly every wall of entrances to offices or visions and goals and so on. And we are going to get into that in our interview today and discussion afterwards. Declaration is not a magic wand, but it is an essential leadership move of transformational leaders. We've often heard or said the phrase actions speak louder than words and on one level we know we know that to be instinctively true. We are our actions, but the shift were speaking about today from predicting to declaring is inviting you to be as bold in your language as you can with courage and clarity so that anyone who hears knows without doubts what it is that you're committed to and what you're inviting them to be part of.

Sara: Before we head into our conversation with today's gas, where we dig around this a little bit more. I want us to think about the dreams that you may not have declared, the wishes and the ones that you could crystallize into a powerful declaration. What is it that you would be willing to declare as a possibility that is something you really, really want to see become a reality in your life or in the world? What is it that you're really naturally interested in or passionate about? Or what is it in the world that you believe you could be or should be, but you're not yet in the game about making that a reality.

Wayne: So Neil Rogers joined us in our studio in Bath and after Senior Executive roles in the UK with Prudential and Egg, which is one of the pioneers of internet banking in the nineties, Neil called time on his corporate career in his early fifties, or when we wrote to Neil and asked how he likes to be introduced he said “I'm an old guy who has some experience of organization.” So I think you're going to enjoy the conversation. We started off by asking him about his background and to share some aha moments that got him to where he is today. And crucially get his perspective on this shift from predicting to declaring.

Neil Rodgers Interview

[00:09:47] Neil: Well, I'm really an organizations guy.

[00:09:49] After university I had nearly 30 years in organizations. And then, entered what gets called your third age at a relatively young age. And, yes, corporate life and living what I call a portfolio life - it wasn't obvious, it wasn't predictable, it wasn't some thing that I knew how to do particularly, so I made a conscious choice to move from my, what you might think of as middle life, to, to third age and in order to do that, I had to think hard about what might be possible for me.So that was an aha moment for me going through that process. Wasn't easy.

[00:10:32] Sara: And you’d had some experience in Egg that prepared you for that moment, I guess.

[00:10:40] Neil: Well, you have to be old enough to remember it. It was the UK’s first purely online bank, so it rode that sort of wave of consumer use of the internet in the early days to the year 2000, uh, plus or minus a year. And, the UK had experienced its first telephone bank from 1989 onwards, but Egg was the first online bank, and, it was an organization full of possibility and full of people taking action everywhere in service of those possibilities. It didn't always look coherent. But really innovative things emerged. And, uh, there was a time when Egg was, I think it was the largest purely online bank in the world for a time. Uh, but certainly the first in, in that I know of, and certainly in the UK and, and the very existence of Egg and its operation as a purely online bank was a very good example of somebody somewhere declaring something possible. And then following that up.

[00:11:50] Sara: And how did that prepare you then for this third life?

[00:11:55] Neil: Well, a declaration of some kind and then a follow-up of action consistent with that declaration. So I said, it's possible for me to live my life a different way to how I'd traditionally been living it. And, you know, many things had to be in place to enable that. Not least to supporting family. Um, but that's what I was able to do.

[00:12:19] And now I'm a lot older and I might have the ambition of living a third age longer than the second age.

[00:12:28] Wayne: Now I must ask actually that you walked in here today with a ukulele. So somewhere in the space, in this third age, you're a ukulele player as well. So what, how does that fit in? And I haven't asked you yet today, i'm really interested in that.

[00:12:40] Neil: I would have brought it with me in here if you really wanted. It's something that interested me. So there's little point in declaring anything possible if it doesn't interest you. And I'd actually gotten one just before all the lockdown stuff started, but the fact that we were cooped up at home and had time enabled me to just do more practicing. And I was getting some ukulele lessons online and on a slightly more serious note is good for me, it makes me use parts of my brain that I wouldn't otherwise you. And and my fine motor skills are not that good. So, uh, it, it helps me try and keep my fingers and sense of rhythm going.

[00:13:35] Wayne: But I was interested because it's like, actually the declaration of possibility for this season of your life has created the space in which passions like that are…..

[00:13:43] Neil: that and many other things. So, I mean, if anybody is interested in living a portfolio should read Charles Handy - who is now very old, but he's like one of the gurus - he's an elderly, Irish, compelling writer and he's published a dozen books at least to my knowledge. And he, he says that people talk about trying to achieve work life balance. And he just eschews that phrase because it sets work and life up as opposites. And he's saying that if you live a life, you are in fact doing lots of different types of work. You're just doing it for different compensations. So people think of work as well I must have money for it otherwise it isn't work, but you do work for all kinds of reasons, like duty for love, self-improvement, and if you start thinking about, I just have a portfolio of things of work things I do for different rewards and you, you get a balance of those things that suits you. That's how to achieve work-life balance.

[00:14:48] Sara: Maybe you could tell us a bit of some of the declarations maybe that you've made in your life or helped other people to make. I know you're a coach to many, and that's part of your portfolio now.

[00:15:01] Neil: Well, I'm not avoiding the question, I think I need to say what I think a declaration is, to something about the anatomy of a declaration.

[00:15:09] Wayne: Yeah, if someone listening is like, well, what is this thing?

[00:15:13] Neil: Okay. So essentially, a declaration is a spoken thing, it's a language thing. And what it does is bring something into existence that previously did not exist. If you stop and think about this a bit, we only know things exist because we have conversations about it existing, and we agree. There's a philosopher called Martin Heidegger, I think he wrote that things get created in language, so a declaration – it’s a speech act, not an act of speech. So the action is contained in the speech. So you bring into existence something that, that previously didn't exist. And there are at least two types of declaration. You can bring something into existence as reality, immediately when your words are spoken and you can bring something into existence as a possibility. And the difference between those two has something to do with the authority that you have in the situation. So, you know, when my children were younger, I could say it's bedtime. That's a declarative act. I declare it is now your bedtime. And I mean, clearly people don't speak like that, but the important thing is to have the notion of what a declaration is and to know when you've made one, even if you don't sign post it like that. So I brought into the existence as a reality that it's my kid's bed bedtime. And I can do that because I have the authority that you have as a parent.  

[00:16:59] Sara: And I guess a declaration of marriage is something similar

[00:17:03] Neil: That's why it is called it a declaration of marriage – it’s a declarative act. The United States was brought into existence as a country, through a Declaration of Independence. And if a judge says at the end of a trial, and a guilty verdict. I sentence you to five years of penal servitude, that's the reality the moment it's spoken because the judge has the authority to do that. So it's a declarative act and you bring something into existence immediately as a reality.

I could say to you, you guys are all employees of Achieve Breakthrough, and I could say from now on you will get paid the same salaries and other benefits, but you only have to work four days in a week. I could declare that, but it's not a reality. I can only declare that as a possibility. I don't have the authority to declare that as a reality

Sara: Do you want to come and work here.

Neil: [Now, who do you think has the authority over you to say what you think is possible? It's a trick question. You do. So you can declare anything possible and you don't have to be restricted to just what's predictable.

[00:18:18] Sara: But so are you saying that anybody can make a declaration of possibility. You know, so it would be the owner of a Achieve Breakthrough that declaration and it'd be a reality, but any one of us could make that as a possibility without the authority.

[00:18:34] Neil: Absolutely. Yes. The authority, the thing that the authority determines on is whether or not it's immediately reality,

[00:18:43] Wayne: But if, if we stay this example for a moment, Sarah could make that declaration of possibility, but we don't have the authority to do that. But by making that declaration of possibility it creates a conversation that might not be existing at the moment.

[00:18:58] Neil: That is exactly correct.

[00:19:00] Wayne: And then at some point it creates the possibility that it becomes a reality.

[00:19:07] Neil: Well, the first thing you've done when you've said it is you've created it, you've brought it into existence as a possibility. Now ifcertain other things happen the conversation follows as you've just said. You find this example in politics everywhere. So a randomly chosen thought because of something I read this morning is in the United States at the moment, there is an ongoing, stop the steal conversation that the election was really won by President Trump and that President Joe Biden is a fraud and is not really the duly elected president. People talked about that and you can examine that and analyse it as somebody declared the possibility that this was a steal. This was corrupt. It's a perfect illustration of how if you create something as a possibility immediately it opens up conversation. It opens up new action

[00:20:03] Wayne: In the pharmaceutical company we work with they created a declaration and it's been really interesting to see how it's impacted of, we want to cause three to five times the benefit to society at half the cost. So that was made to shareholders at the senior level, but what's been fascinating is how that declaration and it lives as a declaration has shifted the conversation, in sub-teams and so on because it's, it's causing conversations that didn't exist before.

[00:20:36] Neil: Yeah. Spot on.

[00:20:38] Wayne: That’s a vivid example of at a senior level, for the normal leader in an organization, how can declaration start to become a habit or an action that they take?

[00:20:52] Neil: Well, it's exactly the same. It just depends on the scope of what they're accountable. So everybody, whether they're relatively junior or middle or senior ranking has an accountability, there is something in their arena for which they are accountable. So they are then entitled to say what's possible for them in that accountability. So you might be a first-line supervisor who works with a team member who is difficult. And you have a choice. How do you handle that? So what are you going to say is possible for that team member and make it an explicit choice, but once you've made the choice and you said what's possible, then, then take action consistent with it. Don't keep changing course. So if you say I have enough evidence it's predictable that this person is going to do damage to the firm and they're not going to get better and recover you can be informed by that and the possibility you would then declare partly depends on your approach to managing people and your values and stuff but you could say, I say it's possible that we can have a dignified exit for this person, and help encourage them to go into a line of work which is more suited to their abilities. I mean then it just depends on your values, but you can say a possibility. The point is then to act consistently with what you said is possible.

There's no point in saying it's possible for this person to make a contribution to this firm which is very valued and then behave as if they're going to get fired in a month. You have to act with, well, if it was so that this person can do that, what now is missing? What's the action I can take that's missing and consistent with that possibility becoming reality.

[00:22:45] Wayne: And that's why it's a transformation. It's a word that people will roll their eyes out. But actually if we reclaim the meaning of it, that's why it can be a transformational act because you're starting state actions from a different possibility than you would take predictably.

[00:23:00] Neil: That's exactly, exactly. It. You take action from the possibility. So you're coming from the future possibility, not from what's predictable based on the.

[00:23:11] Sara: So this reminds me of somebody I was coaching and I was coaching the person and the line manager, and they've got a performance improvement plan, a PIP. And I said to the boss do you think he'll make? He had three months, you know, to do a marked improvement, do you think he'll make it? And she said, no, no, we're not really, you know, we've been having this conversation for years with him. And I said, okay, so lets imagine the opposite, I said, what are you committed to, do you want him to stay? She said “God, yeah, you know, he's brilliant technically, he just rubs everybody up the wrong way” And so we created, you know, what that would look like. And I said, what would you do if you were acting from really wanting him to get through this. And she said, God, I would take him for dinner. You know, I really have a heart to heart with him. I’d tell him how much he was brilliant and support him differently. And, and of course the action went on from there, but that was the fundamental, you know, we have this tool standing in the future. If you could just stand in that declaration and create that as a reality, now what action would you take even if you don't believe it yet?

[00:24:27] Neil: Yeah. And, and, and I'm very minded to say that a declaration of possibility is all very well, but unless it's accompanied by a commitment to taking action, then, it’ll just, it'll vaporize. It's a waste of time.

[00:24:47] Wayne: I've made many new year's resolutions that didn't see the end of January.

[00:24:51] Neil: I think they’re good examples.

And there are several things about a declaration of possibility. It has to interest you. You have to want it. Because if it doesn't interest you and/or you don't really want it, you're very, very unlikely to consistently and persistently take action consistent with transforming it from being a possibility to being a reality.

And the word transformation is much used and abused. People often use it to mean big change. When the size doesn't matter, actually it could be big or it could be very tiny. The point is, I think of transformation as an alteration in the way something exists. So, so think caterpillar to butterfly. Child to adult. You don't get to be a fully functioning better adult by getting better at being a child. Which is why prediction and declaration of possibility are not comfortable bedfellows, because prediction is often based on what we've always done before, what we know to be true, being who we've always been.

Wayne: And there's a strong gravity to all those three isn’t there?

[00:26:22] Neil: reasons. Yes. It's very, very, very secure and it's very survival oriented, but getting better at what you already do and know and be isn't necessarily going to get you what you really want. So what we do as people in organizations and people living lives sometimes is that we find stories, we find convenient ways to justify to us not going for the thing we really want, but instead going for the thing, that's predictable because that's safe. And in business, in the sixties and seventies and eighties, there used to be a phrase or a homily thing, an aphorism, nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. It was the safe thing to do. It might, with hindsight have been the best thing to have done, but nobody ever got fired for doing it. And it was great for IBM - bully for them, you know, good for their team and their corporate results. But it's the fundamental question facing anyone in an organization, and this doesn't matter about what level you are, it's just a different accountability set that's affected is what do I really, really want? What am I prepared to say, boldly that I want and then declare it possible. If it didn't have to worry about failure. If I couldn't fail, what if I couldn't fail? What if I wouldn’t lose my reputation? What if I wouldn't lose all my good relationships, valued relationships? What if I wouldn't lose everything, you know, all my status, my wealth, my income, and that sort of stuff. You know, if all those things are taken care of, what would I really shoot for in these circumstances? That is an incredibly tough question. Typically, if you're a CEO.

[00:28:16] Sara: But I think the irony is, is that when you do declared, you do put yourself out on the rim like that, that all those things don't come true. You know, it's like, oh, the world didn't collapse around me. I didn't get fired for speaking my mind. And in fact it was refreshing, you know, the authenticity of people speaking what they really, really want. And I think that's something that's really missing, particularly in large organizations Neil. You know, where there seems to be this deafness cloud or blindness, that people don't do that. Why do you think people don't make declarations for what they really want.

Neil: Well to start with why don't people make bold decorations. First of all, if you accept my proposition, that it has to interest you and you have to really, really want it, it might not be available to you consciously. There might be something in what you really want that is so fundamentally scary that it doesn't even get up into conscious thought, it's suppressed before it even gets that far. So that's the first kind of issue and why that happens i'm not qualified to say, but I just know from experience it does, and in life and in organizations. If you get beyond that, the moment it comes into consciousness, you know, the cold sweats breakout, and that's the next kind of thing to overcome is the, you know, this is crazy, this is stupid, this is suicidal. I'll get fired, you know, or my, my partner will leave me or my children will hate me or I'll lose my house, whatever it is. Um, there's the threat. Now the threat that comes up and gives you the cold sweats varies from human being to human being. And again, I'm not qualified to talk about that too much, but just based on experience, I've seen as many different versions of threat as I've seen humans, it's almost like very, very personal. So I'm not qualified to say why there's a threat, and where it comes from. But I do, I just know from experience that everybody in some way in their life and in their organization, life is threatened by something. And, and I think what I've seen is that there are broadly as many threats as there are people I've met. Maybe they categorize, but that it's not always the same from people to people. So some people are very threatened by the thoughts of taking action that's going to lead them to be alone. And other people are not in the slightest bit threatened by that, but they might be threatened by the thoughts of taking action, which causes them to be found out. As a fraud, as not really up to the job. And then there are some people who, that doesn't even cross their mind that that might happen. Some people are instead those people might be threatened by the thought of, I might fail at this, it might not work, it might be regarded as being a failure. And then there are other people who are not in the slightest bit spooked by the prospect of failure. So there are many, many reasons why once you've had the conscious thought and the cold sweats broken out, the threat takes over and stops you. Then, once you got past that, the next level of what will stop you is, well, I don't know how to do it.

Sara: Make the declaration.

Neil: No, I've made the declaration of possibility.

Sara: I don't know how to make it a reality.

Neil: I don't know how to transform it to reality. What do I do? What action do I take? So you've got past the it's coming into consciousness, otherwise you wouldn't have been able to say it. Um, you've got over the threat, you've managed yourself so that you - I'll screw my courage to the sticking points as it were. And now you're faced with, yeah, I don't know how, I don't know how I'm going to do it. And this, this is, um, this goes into the territory of you're beyond predicting results, you’re more into declaring the possibility realms of possibility and it has to be accompanied by a commitment to action otherwise, it's a pointless thing to do. We're in a studio in Bath and I’ve gotta get to London tonight. I could say I declare it's possible - or some version of these words - that I will climb onto the roof and I will fly to London unaided by any kind of mechanical device. I am perfectly entitled to say that that's possible because I am the arbiter of what I say is possible. Right. Am I prepared to take action on that?

Wayne: laughs, That’s when I still start filming.

Neil: Of course not. So immediately I make that declaration of possibility, it attenuates into nothing. It just fizzles out. It's a dream, it's a fantasy. And a lot of people's new year's resolutions are fantasies, dreams right? So if it's not going to be that, what's the action going to be? And that gets you into a whole different territory or aspect of this conversation that has to do with how do you now, how do you formulate, how do you create action that is going to help to transform? And I can tell you the answer is not in one step, ever. If, if, if the pathway is obvious to you the chances are you're predicting rather than declaring a realm of bold possibility - I'm afraid. You're going for what you know how to do, therefore, by definition, it's predictable. If you want to make a bold possibility, and have a - forgive the phrase – a transformational leap, you have to have something you don't know how to do, which is bold. So you create a gap between what you currently think is possible and that commitment, the moment you spoken about the possibility.

[00:34:26] Sara: So that putting yourself at risk, you know, as your second thing I think is really clear. I've heard you say in the past Neil that you can't do something you can't say, but words aren't enough, and I guess that's what you're pretty much….

[00:34:42] Neil:  …I mean, it's very difficult to take action into something which you cannot say the words about what it is. If you can't find language for it, then it's unlikely that you will suddenly very randomly will you do it? So the, the spoken words on necessary to begin with, but they are far from sufficient. You have to have a commitment to action. And also to actually, when you don't really know how this is going to pan out, now this is scary territory.

[00:35:09] Wayne: Yeah, which is why it has the potential, however, to be so impactful because it's taking us into areas of our thinking that we don't habitually go to. But what would you say Neil, to, um, you know, in our work, we sometimes get the, the good question, so if you're going to ask 200 of our community here, my teams make declarations, bold decorations, that's just going to cause chaos around here. And it's a great conversation to have with folks. What would you say. So that sort of fear or any leader listening to this about, gosh, do I really want my teams to make bold declarations? What would you say to that?

[00:35:52] Neil: So, first of all, just to remind myself as much as anything, declarations of possibility are available to anyone, it goes with the accountability you have. And the circumstances you face at any one time. So that's the arena. So that works for the CEO. It works for, you know, the person who manages the photocopying machine. So if someone in the middle of that, but starting with the CEO makes a bold declaration of possibility for the enterprise, and invites everyone to do the same for their bit, what are you going to get? It depends on your relationship to control. If your relationship to control is that it really exists and you must have it, then you're not going to go this way. If your relationship to control is such that you will accept it is largely an illusion, then there's a chance you will get somewhere. You're more likely to be able to set loose all of that creativeness in your organization. I just remembered when I was at Egg, we had a Chief Operating Officer and the Chief Operating Officer did what Chief Operating Officers do in the context of an online bank. And particularly in the early online days, we had the kind of people with problems and they would have to phone up and they'd find help with the problem. And so we would have contact centre people. And often they couldn't immediately solve the problem, there would have to be two or three or four calls to get it solved. And this was unsatisfactory. Customers did not like that experience at all. And so after going around the circle a few times, the Chief Operating Officer decided I'm not having this, I'm going to say it's possible that every single person who calls up with a problem, it's what we call first contact resolution, FCR. We're going to have first contact resolution and immediately the other people in the room said, well, how are you going to do that? And he said, I have no idea. I am simply going to say it's possible. And I'm going to tell everyone in our contact centre, that's what they're free to try to do. That's what I want, and that's what I hope they will do. I expect them to do it, find a way. Now the action that resulted from that if you stood back and looked at it without knowing anything about anything would look completely chaotic, but the overall result was that the rate of first contact resolution rocketed, skyrocketed, you could never have done that with a project plan.

[00:38:46] Sara: And I think that's a stumbling block for a lot of people, is the mess. You know, it always looks messy.

[00:38:55] Neil: um, well look at nature. I mean, it doesn’t get any messier. There's enormous beauty emerges from everywhere all the time. So in our, in my Egg example of first contact resolution, um, it was the chief operating officer's ability to get over himself and realize that his commitment was to having first contact resolution, not to being right about how to do it.

[00:39:22] Wayne: can I, um, just ask again or, or clarify something you said within the limits of, or the realms rather than maybe you said of accountability, so someone I've been coaching as a medical director for a country and one, their declaration was around changing the healthcare system in their country. And after about a couple of years, um, working with us and actually their declaration now is, is outside of their country. It's actually the region. Now that's not actually probably in their accountability, but they see it as possible because of the successes that they've gained from making the first declaration. So I'm asking around conventionally sometimes don't we think our accounts, but as he might be smaller than it is, or, or,

[00:40:05] Neil: well, I, I, I, I like this example. I mean the short answer to your question is yes.

[00:40:11] I aay that anyone is able to make a declaration of possibility and the arena for it is what they're accountable for and the circumstances they face. I mean, and I'm saying that deliberately to head off the cynics at the past as they stay in westerns. You know, because, because, you know, whoa, you can't expect someone that junior to start talking about the firm as a whole. Okay. Right. Now, once, once you've accepted that as a start point, depends how bold you are. So the person that you're referring to has suddenly gotten a bit bold. Yeah. There's nothing to stop that, but you have to, this goes into the territory of how do you formulate the action. They probably don't know how to take this action for the countries. So the clue is always, well, how would I know it's reality so that this transformative a declared possibility to something, everyone agrees is real. What are the things that have to be true that would satisfy everyone that we have reality, and you start to look at well, what's missing, so your colleague there would, would start to look up well, what's missing for me.

Wayne: which is a very creative question.

Neil: It is. So it's back to something that was said earlier in this conversation about declaring a possibility starts a new kind of conversation. So this person would now start seeing new action on their radar that ultimately would have some impact under the countries as well as their host country.

[00:41:38] Sara: So when you make the declaration for possibility, with constructing a new paradigm really to then act from?

[00:41:46] Neil: Yeah so there's a lesser known thing, about declaration of possibility, which is, I don't know exactly when this would be  -the 1910s, 1920s, but Gandy started talking about the British walking out of India rather than being fought and losing a battle and leaving India. Imagine how crazy that sound is then. You know, and nobody would know how to do that, but that was someone. And what authority did he have anyway? Very little. Um, but that, so that's an example of how somebody devoted their life to taking action into what was missing to make the possibility they're very attached to become a reality.

[00:42:31] Sara: You've just suddenly made me very comfortable in something that I have come out my mouth many times, speaking to a chief exec or a leader where I've encouraged them to declare a possibility that felt bold and risky and it's caused uproar – you know negative, people don't always sort of go “Wahoo. Yeah.” You know, it's actually created a, that can't be so because, and you're crazy and you've lost your credibility as a leadership team, you know, and I've said, at least it started something, it started a conversation that didn't exist before.

[00:43:10] Neil: And there is a lot of value in starting a conversation that previously was not a conversation. And this is an aspect of being a leader. It is sort of slightly more generically that that rarely gets discussed and rarely will be taught on leadership training courses, which is first of all, the bold declaration and getting beyond those barriers, I said referred to earlier, but it's then you become the clearing for that possibility. And this is where leadership gets really boring because you go around telling the story. Over and over and over many times to different people, but you're feeding the clearing. You're, you're, you're keeping thre clearing, your nourishing it, because if you can do that for people the context in which they work alters, and as we all know the context determines the scope and the limitation of action you can take, it's decisive in that way. So if you affect the context of people by being the possibility it's the, the technical word is clearing, it comes from a German word.

[00:44:18] Sara: So that brings me on to the quality of these declarations. Cause I think some are more powerful than others. Some are like goals, they're great. But when your by language declaring, you're actually creating a new realm of possibility

[00:44:40] Wayne: add on Saturday?

[00:44:41] And if it's the same, but, there are a number of folks who might say, oh, but we've got vision statements, you know, we've got, we've got them on the wall. Where's he come into reception and, and, uh, yeah, we made one of those couple of years ago. I can't quite remember what the words are, you know? So there is living in organizational life or leaders like.

[00:44:59] Ideas like [00:45:00] mission statements, vision statements, and so on. So

[00:45:02] Sara: to be world-class, you know, to be the best high-performing team

[00:45:06] Neil: um, so organizations are full of things like missions and visions and values and purpose statements and so forth. These notions are not well-defined and go to different organizations. They'll define what those things are differently, not helpful. And they, and they tend to get mixed. You know, they're the, they're just an agglomeration of nothingness usually.

[00:45:30] I still like the Jim Collins and Jerry porous version, it's in their book built to last. They have a very good structure for how to define these slightly ill-defined well, not well-defined concepts, but in any event going to most organizations and you'll see things on the. Particularly the mission or the purpose statement.

[00:45:55] And there's a very good chance. There'll be a large degree of [00:46:00] predictability in whatever they say. As opposed to it being a bull possibility. It's predictable in the sense that experienced tells them how, things like, we will be the market leader in the markets we serve and customers, and it's just, it's as, Gretta Timberg said, blah, blah, blah. Also they're trying to set satisfy, and they're trying to satisfy everyone with those statements, as opposed to. What does the accountable person really want?

[00:46:31] So whenever there's something like mission or purpose, my first inquiry is always who's accountable. And then a conversation with the accountable person to start to unpack how bold are they? Yeah. And I know your finance director wants this, and I know one of your board members wants that, but what do you want?

[00:46:52] and then for the purpose and the mission, there are often, there's no written down notion of what would have to [00:47:00] be true for you to say that's now reality. Mission accompany. Well purpose achieved. You know, there's no defined way to know that you've reached that point. If you, if you don't know that you've got there, what's the point in having it in the first place., and then this is back to the, where do you source your action from? Most organizations will be, we'll be sourcing their action by reacting to events. There'll be buffeted by circumstances. So I . Have, an unashamed cynical view of these things in organizations. Your question about the quality of the bowl decoration is, is a good one.

[00:47:40] I think. Uh, degree of quality or, you know, more quality. This is high quality or low quality. I, I don't find that . Helpful. I'm more. Inclined to categorize these things, according to how impossible is it to you. And if you know exactly what steps to take and you can [00:48:00] see how to do it, I'm not saying it isn't hard.

[00:48:02] I mean, it might require tremendous amounts of effort and persistence and sweat, but that's not the same. Not knowing how to do it. It's when you're make prepared to make a bold declaration of possibility, and you cannot see the obvious pathway ahead of you, that's the characteristic I would say is distinguishing you from predictable.

[00:48:25] The thing about goals are. Overplayed. And they're very, very useful when the timescale is, is relatively short and the environment in which you're trying to achieve, the goal is relatively stable. When you have. A foreseeable time scale, and an a stable environment goals are really useful outside of that, which frankly is mostly real life outside of that goals become quite narrowing.

[00:48:55] And you start to take action just to do with the goal [00:49:00] when you miss all kinds of other possibilities. So for me, a bowl decoration looks like it's a realm of possibility. Whereas if you only go for the one. That's the best you'll do.

[00:49:15] Wayne: I think it might be, well, we will cover this on a subsequent episode, but, in terms of when we encounter the, because if it's not predictable, if it is a breakthrough, we are going to encounter the setbacks when things don't go according to plan.

[00:49:31] So, um, what, what is your coaching to leaders in that moment? Yeah. Uh, as opposed to what often happens, where we dissipate the commitment or we forget the declaration.

[00:49:41] Neil: So my reaction to it is, is, is bringing on the certain bikes because they're useful. So this is something I learned in ag. I prior to a, my umpteen years in Prudential line, I never would have said this, but when void the setbacks.

[00:49:58] So, so for [00:50:00] me, I'm going to say. I mean by a setback. It's when events, circumstances start to turn out in a way, which is inconsistent with the thing you commitment you started out with. So at some point that gap gets large enough and you kind of do a timeout. You stop the action to have a review that when you do that is there's no formula.

[00:50:24] In fact, here's a scary thought. If you say. We're going to call this a set back and stop and discuss that that's declarative. That's a D that's a declaration. You're declaring a breakdown. Leaderships do that. Oh yes. It takes judgment. It takes courage, a certain skill. What you can then do.

[00:50:45] You stopped the action by definition. It's like a timeout. In fact, we did in a call these things. So I'll try to call them time outs and you look and say, what is it that we really want here? What are we trying to achieve? [00:51:00] Do we all have the same view of it? So this is going back to the original declaration of possibility by the accountable person.

[00:51:06] And often people have. People have drifted away from that, that they think they're trying to achieve something that's slightly different. And, you know, like initial conditions in a weather system, it only needs to be tiny differences to lead. Ultimately, you know, the, the famous flap of the butterfly's wings in Mexico, there's a tornado in Texas order.

[00:51:26] So you review, you get everybody back on the same page and then you say, well, look what happened. Yeah. And in the light of that, what's. Standing in our original commitment and you then start to get back in action. So the more of these setbacks. Yeah, it's completely counter-intuitive you, you, you uncover you unconceal, what's getting in the way.

[00:51:53] Wayne: I think we're going to dig into this in a future episode, but what I'm hearing from you is that, um, bring them on,

[00:51:59] Sara: now I think, [00:52:00] I, I mean, I've taken many things. But away from our conversation, you know, that the declarations are speech acts, and they're available to all of us and bringing a new realm of possibility into it, into existence and, and how needed they are perhaps in the world today.

[00:52:17] But, um, but first of all, they've got to be part of our consciousness. And then, How bold we are to kind of take that risk to do that. And I love the piece around because I say so,

[00:52:28] Neil: if you're going to make a declaration, you don't have to prove it.

[00:52:31] it's nothing to do with that. It's because you say,

[00:52:36] Sara: I think, you know, the last, last question we'd like to ask, which is, you know, what, what breakthroughs do you know of currently.

[00:52:45] That perhaps you're not involved in a person, a business nonprofit organization that you're really excited about. You know, that's perhaps using this, you know, moving from prediction to declaration that that's giving you hope at the [00:53:00] moment,

[00:53:00] Neil: how the world is relating to climate change. A conversation has begun and action is being taken and. There is a possibility that this world, this planet, this species can deal with the it's known as the Anthropocene, which is the era that we've entered, which is the way homosapiens is affecting the. And there's a lovely phrase. This is an existential question. It's very fashionable, but it actually does involve whether the species can continue to exist on a alive on this planet.

Interview Conclusions and Take-Away Practices to Try at Home

 

[00:53:38] Sara: Whoa so much in that conversation with Neil to digest and reflect on. And it brings us back to a few threads from our first podcast in the series limited possibility to unlimited possibility the act of forming and speaking a declaration is the first step to bringing about a change. And transformation and bringing a new [00:54:00] possibility alive.

[00:54:01] So let's look at the hallmarks of making a great declaration. Yeah,

[00:54:06] Wayne: it occurred to me, Sarah. Well, I was listening to Neil that the art of possibility as an organizational capability is almost considered kind of uncredible or. Unconventional in some cases, absolutely away with the fairies, unless it's grounded in evidence and facts and data, it just can't be possible or taken seriously yet.

[00:54:26] Yeah. I don't think this is true. Really. Sometimes it is. It is a sense that we have a feeling that we cannot qualify that gets created within us. When we're sat in the middle of something, when we're truly committed to something it's there. We're not trusting ourselves. And we often give up before we've built the assertions for our possibility to stand on, to give it credibility.

[00:54:49] And Neil spoke about this as a declaration because we say so, because I say so, because I choose as a leader to create this possibility, this new.

[00:54:59] Sara: [00:55:00] Absolutely. And in talking with colleagues and partners over the last few years, it's really apparent that relying on past experience, data and trends, it's no longer sufficient to be successful.

[00:55:13] It does have an important role of course, but the leadership capability to generate vision and possibilities especially needed right now, as Margaret heiferman says in her book and chartered. The time horizon for predicting is shrinking. By the time we have the data and we've got the facts to base it on the window has passed the window of opportunity's gone without inventing and declaring the possibility for the future.

[00:55:41] We are giving our leadership power away to the past, which is of course being a human being of course.

[00:55:48] Wayne: And as so many of our guests have said so far, it's important that the possibility or your vision to be something that you care about and it really interests you or Steven Carver said you're passionate about, [00:56:00] and this is because we need to really embody the possibility as if it were true already current reality and integrate it into every fiber of our being.

[00:56:10] This in our day, work consulting with clients is critical for the leader that you are the walking possibility. The declaration may be 10 years out, but you are being the possibility today. And then in your actions who I. Is the automation of this process or the discovery of COVID-19 vaccination in record time, or the having of waste in this manufacturing process or the access to education for those who have none yet that you become the clearing the space.

[00:56:43] If you like for this possibility that wasn't there

[00:56:46] Sara: before. Absolutely the weighing. And if you're not passionate about it, then you're not necessarily inclined. Give up, you know, the things that have gone before and the things that you've relied upon.

[00:56:59] And [00:57:00] I think this is part of, you know, part of the story is declaring that possibility. The other part is to make a promise to act on it until it becomes a reality. And this bit's really important. Okay. we rarely sort of see or talk about in the form of leadership, but it's an embodiment of a possibility as if it's already a reality that you generate, then your action from it, you know, but by doing this, it doesn't feel like a destination that we get to.

[00:57:31] And you talked about, you know, those visions and missions, uh, Neil dead, you know, on the wall, they feel like a destination to get to a, more of a. You know, I'm talking about more of a possibility that will become a reality, like a certainty, because it already feels like what. And all we have to do is sort of manifest it through our own being, if that makes sense.

[00:57:54] Um, it doesn't, it doesn't then occur to us like a burden we take on or pressure [00:58:00]that we have around. It just becomes who we are, like a choice, So I think, the possibility we have to be passionate about it. And then we have to suck it all in as if it's already a reality as if it's already happening.

[00:58:15] Wayne: I guess there's a risk in, in what we're saying, Sarah, that this could sound like. Actually simply declare at it will make everything easy, straightforward, and the universe will bend to our will and it will just happen. And if that's what we've built in anyone's mind, I think it's really important here to, to underline that, that when we commit to something that is breakthrough, that isn't gonna.

[00:58:41] What happens predictably. So it will challenge the conventions or the prevailing wisdom, or even sometimes if we think of the civil rights movement, the law that existed at that time, we need to better embody that different future because sometimes we might be the only one we might be the only one we might be [00:59:00] against.

[00:59:00] All sorts of opposition and there can be a lot of blood, sweat, and tears in making breakthrough happens, but we are continually sourcing ourselves from that declaration we've made, rather than actually what the circumstances are telling us at this stage.

[00:59:16] The point of a declaration of new possibility is to shatter the old or current reality to alter the reality of the team or the community or your customer or the organization it's supposed to be uncomfortable or create a reaction and have people stop and often try and dismiss or discredit and say, what does that mean?

[00:59:35] Or create a curiosity and conversation around it. So it is important how you construct the declaration. Literally the words you choose, the articulation is built in a way that actually takes people to that new reality gives them a glimpse of that new world that it's not always well.

[00:59:54] Sara: I'd like to share a real special moment in my career doing this . Work, , [01:00:00]was when, we were working with a leader that came to me in a break, in a workshop and said, I think I have a possibility for this function.

[01:00:09] And there was real trepidation in his voice. He knew if he declared it, it would create an uncomfortable reaction from his leadership team. They would reject it and think he had lost the plot and even, you know, do their utmost to dismiss it entirely. All examples of the little voice that we spoke to back. Of course, in episode one, this declaration was calling forth a heightened responsibility from the team for grace profit.

[01:00:36] When the factors that influence profit were to the majority out of their hands or say they thought it called for the team to partner radically differently the areas of the business that could influence profit. This leader after little encouragement?

[01:00:52] I have to say, because deep down he knew this would shift the reality of the team and start a conversation or a bit challenging and [01:01:00] negative at first. And it would be the beginning of a transformation for the entire organization. He did it and he never looked back. As well as transforming how these two areas fundamentally work together, a whole new opportunity was born out of that conversation and that progressed to a new revenue stream for the business.

[01:01:22] So this example really shifted the team's reality enough to create their new conversation, surface the existing context and assumptions, and build a different paradigm that the team started to bring alive. And that.

[01:01:36] Wayne: I love that story, Sarah. Cause it, it takes me back. Where we became a Martin Luther king and, and when we considered, well, what if he had never declared that dream?

[01:01:45] And, and this example is that that could have stayed inside of him and not shared and not acted on, and the outcomes wouldn't have happened in that. What stays

[01:01:53] Sara: as that wishing that one, doesn't it, you know, the leader saying, well, how do I get this team to take more [01:02:00] responsibility? How do I get them to.

[01:02:02] Show up in meetings and challenge points of view. But if you do this by shifting the reality, that then impacts the action that people have. It can be one of the most powerful leverages that a leader can have.

[01:02:18] Wayne: Absolutely.

[01:02:21] Wayne: So, how do we get into this this week practically? And so as a starter for 10, a common declaration that we see leaders and organizations make is the, and we will do quality value and volume. You know, when organizations currently feel it can only be one or the other, we will do hybrid working and sustain a company culture engagement, which is a very,, present one, for many organizations at the moment.

[01:02:47] So this could be, , a good, easy access for a declaration waiting to happen that would have some bites and traction,, in your team or organization. What's the ANZ that is [01:03:00] apparently opposite. The, and, or looking at the week ahead, it's a myth, that's a create a declaration. You have to be a clever or a creative type, a, but it comes from being grounded in what's.

[01:03:13] Now the current context being really curious about, about what is present. Of course, it can come from a source of powerful inspiration, that idea that no one's happy for, but it is about being very present, listening deeply to what is, so what is it. So here are four steps that you can, take that would help you to create an articulate, a declaration.

[01:03:37] Step number one, talk to people around. Your colleagues, your team, the organization, and get very curious, write it down about what are their little voices about the objectives they have about the organizations, vision, the market, and inside of those, what are some of the assumptions that are being made that are limiting?

[01:03:58] The thinking not to [01:04:00] invalidate them, but if you're listening for them, you will start to start to hear them quite clearly and listen for the declarations that, that are not being made, but could be being made, uh, or that others are making ground yourself in the, what is so today about the current situation.

[01:04:19] Step number two, this gives you the material for a powerful declaration. What could you declare possible? That is not possible in people's minds today? Does this declaration create a different reality? That's sufficient for calling people into a future that isn't here yet. Does it challenge existing beliefs and the status quo?

[01:04:41] Sara: And then of course the third step would be to practice speaking. Declarations or that declaration that you've created to a few people, test it out, tweak it, build your confidence that this is in the right territory. And I think the negative reactions sometimes give you more conviction that something will change [01:05:00] as a result. You know, we have to be unapologetically able to articulate this

[01:05:06] step four then is your declaration of course will need many other things. You'll need those assertions to replace the fearful, dating little voices. You know, what makes this credible, what makes this possible? You'll need some conditions of satisfaction. Things you won't compromise on. For example, you know, we are going to triple the revenue, but not at the expense of employee wellbeing.

[01:05:33] So there'll be some things that you need to capture. Then there'll be the generation of I'd advise short to medium term action plans. You know, that our source from the declaration, so standing that it is already a reality, what did we do in those first few weeks and months? This is very different to how can we get there, which is sourced from today's context, which course holds all [01:06:00] those concerns, states and fairs.

[01:06:02] Wayne: Yeah, that is one of the most powerful things we see, uh, with folks when they create a plan of action from that future that they're declaring, it reveals some, all kinds of actions, that they wouldn't normally take from today's set of concerns.

[01:06:17] Sara: Cuts out a load of actions that they would normally take that don't make any difference.

[01:06:22] Yeah.

[01:06:24] So something you could practice quietly by yourself. Um, there's a book called the last word on power by Tracy Goss. She talks about the six declarations before breakfast and I really. S because everybody can do this, you know, all, all the time, every morning, you know, what can you declare possible about your day that you want to really achieve?

[01:06:45] Even if it's today will be a great day for connecting with others. Or today I am a leader who listens for possibility. How does this shape your actions that you're going to take today? And what actions would you take . From this [01:07:00] declaration. It's a great sort of reflection. Morning building a tool for you to use,

[01:07:06] Wayne:

As always we’d like to end on a quote – and this weeks is this from Martin Luther King, which powerful sums up the importance of speaking what you dare to declare: “I came to the conclusion that there is an existential moment in your life when you must decide to speak for yourself, nobody else can speak for you”

 

We'll leave you with this question. What is it? You dare to dream or rather more powerfully? What is it that we dare to declare? And this week, we would love to hear some stories of what you have gone into action around us. Some declarations that you've made and what have been the conversations that have started as a result and what have been some of the things that are already happening.

[01:07:27] So thanks for listening. We love nothing more than hearing about your breakthroughs in life and work. And we'd love to hear how you've got on send us those declarations, absolutely email us and that ambition@achievebreakthrough.com. And of course, if you enjoyed it, please leave us a rating. See you next time.

In the next episode we’ll explore why loosening the grip of “knowing” to endlessly cultivate “curiosity”, in yourself and if you are a leader of people in your teams, is critical to unleash ambition and be successful in bringing to life the impossible future you want to create – and may very well declare this week!

 

 

 

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Introduction  Read more